Episode 1 | Tushar Srivastava on BPM, Process Mining and AI Automation

Louis-Victor Jadavji (00:20.813)

Welcome everyone to the Tech Decisions Podcast. This is the inaugural episode. In this show, we're gonna take the soul-sucking work of researching enterprise technology trends and make it accessible, engaging, and insightful. Each episode dives into the vast world of tech solutions, breaking down complex choices into manageable insights to help you make informed strategic decisions. Whether you're a seasoned IT professional or a curious newcomer, tech decision is your go-to resource. So...

A little bit about the sponsor. I'm one of the founders of Taloflow, the sponsor of the show. And it's also hosted by the team at Taloflow. Taloflow is a leading technology selection platform to evaluate vendors for your exact use case. If you'd like to use Taloflow, just go to taloflow.ai and run a free report. Now I'd like to introduce my cohost Abhishek Singh. Abhishek is the manager of enterprise systems integration at Toast. Prior to this, he was a principal analyst at Gartner in the application architecture, infrastructure and integration group.

And finally, I'd like to introduce our guest, Tushar Shrivastava. Tushar is a BPM enthusiast and former Gartner analyst with a decade of experience in business process and requirement gathering, process mapping, and management. Abhishek Tushar, welcome to the inaugural pod.

Tushar Srivastava (02:26.059)
Thank you for the intro.

Abhishek (02:26.671)
Thanks, LV. So, Tushar what did you cover at Gartner and can you define the categories you were covering at Gartner? And how were you?

Louis-Victor Jadavji (02:28.177)
Sounds good.

Abhishek (02:37.678)
covering those categories, how are you categorizing all those different areas?

Tushar Srivastava (02:41.854)
Absolutely. Love to catch up with you guys. And yeah, when we talk about Gartner, so within Gartner, the enterprise software was divided into multiple technologies. And one of them was BPM or business process management. BPM per se is a sort of a principle. It's a practice within which there are multiple technologies. And I used to cover three major technologies there. The first of them being business process automation, which is more around end to end automation and orchestration of processes. Second is

process mining and task mining, which is more around understanding your processes via data, which is present across your system logs on which your process runs. Finally, enterprise business process analysis tools. This is an old version of process mining where you collaboratively model and map your processes in a manual fashion. Those were the three top topics that I used to cover at Gartner.

Louis-Victor Jadavji (03:45.853)
And just interesting to hear that. And what are you currently doing right now Tushar because you're no longer at Gartner?

Tushar Srivastava (03:51.863)
Mm-hmm.

Tushar Srivastava (03:56.959)
Yeah. So currently I'm a senior product manager at Flowable. So Flowable is one of the leaders in the business process automation market. So that's the first category I used to cover at Gartner. So leading the market guide there for business process automation. So Flowable is sort of an end-to-end automation and orchestration vendor. And I'm linked to the product side of things where I'm mostly responsible for product roadmaps and also some bit of marketing that I'm

because of using my Gartner experience in writing some blogs and publishing some success stories. So yeah, bringing all of them together for the product side of things. So yeah, that's what my current role is.

Louis-Victor Jadavji (04:35.409)
Gotcha. And what would you say Flowable focuses on in that space? Like what are the core use cases that tends to do very well at? And then of course you focus on evangelizing.

Tushar Srivastava (04:40.724)
Yeah.

Tushar Srivastava (04:45.526)
Yeah, Flowable is actually known for handling complex use cases via case management. So case management is a methodology where you actually use certain techniques via modeling a process or a sort of a complex process where multiple actors are involved, maybe humans, maybe systems, maybe multiple sort of departments involved in an organization, in a bank or an insurance company or an healthcare provider. So agnostic to the industry, if it's a complex process.

Flowable does that with case management. So Flowable is an evangelist of standards of process automation. So BPMN is one, business process modeling notation, that's the first sort of use case. The second is case management, which I just talked about, which is the most sort of famous. And then finally, it's all about decision management. So creating decision trees and decision tables for underwriting decisions or credit decisions. So those are the use cases that Flowable focuses across industry.

Abhishek (05:45.954)
So Tushar, you've talked about the areas that you have covered, which is BPM. And BPM is nothing new. It has been in the industry for quite some time. And now the term has been used interchangeably with a couple of other areas as well. But can you kind of double click on BPM, and what all areas does it encompass?

Tushar Srivastava (05:49.589)
Mm-hmm.

Tushar Srivastava (06:05.006)
Yeah, that's very interesting when you say that it's been used interchangeably across multiple software domains, I would say. And I would agree BPM is one of the most confusing and misused term in the market. Essentially, it's not a technology, like I said before, BPM is an umbrella term, or BPM is a practice in itself, like you have multiple practices like Kaizen or others where you look at process holistically.

So BPM is a practice where you actually look at the process holistically and understand what's going wrong and then take a decision of what or which technology that you want to invest in. One of the biggest misconceptions with BPM is that you can buy a BPM technology. That's not correct. You cannot throw technology at any problem that you're having within the organization. And because process is your DNA or gene of the company, which differentiates your company from another company.

you need to understand what's going wrong and then apply multiple technologies. And there are stacks of technologies. I can go on and on. But BPM in a sense is a practice where you're looking at your process at a very holistic level before taking a decision that we need to throw technology at it. So that's how BPM has to be looked at. And this is what actually a lot of enterprises make sort of wrong decisions in, wherein they think about technologies first and problems second. Whereas...

BPM advocates, if you look at all the papers that have been written around BPM, the sort of literature that exists, it's more about understanding the issues of the process. What are the inefficiencies? Why are we not delivering the best customer experience? Or why is our return policy not delivering? What exactly is happening wrong that we're not able to deliver certain things at a certain point in time? And that's what BPM is all about. And then, yeah, there are stacks of technology starting from, say, process mining.

where you understand the process, then you sort of take a decision what's wrong. And then there's, say for an example, on top of that, there is RPA or low code sort of technologies where you do sort of task automation. So RPA is a specialized task automation technology. Similarly, low code application platforms are more of a task level automation technologies. And then on top of that to tie everything together, you have technologies like Flowable, like BPA, business process automation, which ties everything together and orchestrates everything together in an end to end fashion.

Tushar Srivastava (08:27.554)
So this is what BPM market broadly is, and these are the technologies it encompasses.

Louis-Victor Jadavji (08:34.693)
So just to quickly summarize, so under BPM we have BPA, RPA, low code, no code, what are we missing?

Tushar Srivastava (08:36.991)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Tushar Srivastava (08:43.906)
process mining, task mining, yeah, and you can also say manual process modeling. So there are vendors out there in the market who give you the capability to standalone map and model your processes. So those are the vendors that exist in the market.

Louis-Victor Jadavji (08:45.201)
Processed mining, fast mining.

Louis-Victor Jadavji (08:59.321)
And what was the distinction between process mining and task mining? Sounds synonymous to me.

Tushar Srivastava (09:02.814)
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. There's, so task mining is more about mining sort of data or knowledge from your laptop at a very sort of a very micro level. So for an example, if you're doing a process within say SAP and you're using certain screens every day, 365 days a year, and there's some inefficiency even when you're not using your laptop, there's something that's going in the background which needs to be captured, which is causing inefficiencies.

So task mining is more about capturing those micro details. Even say for an example, if you're using say, an integration between Microsoft Teams and SAP or Oracle for that matter, and there's some inefficiencies, those need to be captured. And if you go there and capture those manually, it's tough to capture because if I ask you, what's the inefficiency, you might give me two different definitions. Now Abhishek will give me two different definitions. So how you arrive at it is what task mining simplifies. So you have sort of a...

factual picture of what is happening at a micro level. Process mining is at a broad level. So for an example, if you're using say Microsoft Teams, you're using SAP, you're using Salesforce, it uses the sort of data logs that are generated from these systems, pieces them together, ties them together and gives you how the process is moving broadly. So what are the inefficiencies? Where does the inefficiency lie? Does it lie within SAP? Does it lie across the system? Where exactly it lies? So it gives you an end to end process map.

We're task mining, whereas task mining gives you a micro level sort of a process map, how Abhishek or how Lou is performing a process or a task at their level, whereas process mining is more of a broader.

Louis-Victor Jadavji (10:41.861)
I see. Got it. Thank you.

Abhishek (10:45.599)
So, so Tushar, you have touched upon the point that BPM is a bigger umbrella under which many different category of products line, ranging from BPA, RPA, task mining, process mining and a couple of others as well. However, there are times wherein the executives find it difficult to get the buy in for the BPM technologies. So why is it important for enterprises to invest in BPM technologies?

Tushar Srivastava (10:50.143)
Yeah.

Tushar Srivastava (11:00.085)
OK.

Abhishek (11:11.202)
Can you talk about some of the successful outcomes you've experienced in your previous life or you've advised someone who has kind of successfully led a BPM implementation in their organization?

Tushar Srivastava (11:22.45)
Absolutely, that's a very great question. And I would say one of the greatest learnings that I had at Gartner was that when you're looking at process or when you're looking at sort of competitive advantage, these are not two very separate things. So say for an example, just to take two names, for an example, Decathlon or Zara, these two might be very separate sort of entities, one catering to sports sort of genre and other to a fast fashion sort of genre. But in the end, essence is their processes.

which actually gives them a sustainable competitive advantage. And that's, and that's, that, that's what lies at the core of their organizations. You can do a lot of marketing, you can go about and, and do a lot of promotions and so on and so forth. But in the end, if your processes are not delivering, say delivering products on time to your customers or your supply chain inefficiencies are not getting solved, or even at the customer front end, if you're not able to generate billing at right time, at right point in time.

Those are the things that differentiates your organization. And that's why BPM as a practice and also the technologies that it encompasses is important for enterprises to invest in, to understand that nothing else differentiates their companies or enterprises from one another. You might have two different banks that are competing that might on the website. You might find they have mortgage low sort of consumer mortgage or a house mortgage that might look similar to you. But, but how they actually

perform all the activities behind the scene, differentiates two banks or two insurance providers. And that's why you need to invest in BPM technologies to understand where you lack, what are the inefficiencies and get better. And that's why you see a lot of interest from the executives, from multiple enterprises, trying to invest in technologies. And that might be right up to a certain point in time. So if I pick a point in case here, say for an example with RPA, a lot of executives found way back in 2017 or 18,

a lot of value in automating task level sort of inefficiencies by RPA, but over a period of time, they realize it's not scalable. So you need to understand what is the limitation of the technology that you're using or whether it's needed at all in your case or not. So, yes, there's this hunger within organizations to solve inefficiencies, reduce time, reduce throughput time, so on and so forth. But yes, you need to understand that BPM can only offer you sort of solutions if you understand your processes.

Tushar Srivastava (13:49.802)
And that's how you can look at the improvements in the processes. And that's why BPM as a practice is important for the organizations. Hope that answers.

Louis-Victor Jadavji (13:58.421)
And so, yeah, but what are the usual triggers like so, what kind of size, what kind of event gets, enterprise IT teams to say, hey, we have to put a BPM strategy in place and we need this urgently. What do you tend to see in different sectors?

Tushar Srivastava (14:02.828)
Yeah.

Tushar Srivastava (14:16.278)
I think one of the biggest triggers, so if I start with say banking, the most common that I've seen is when you're sort of having governance issues, when you're having sort of issues with your credit sort of assessment going wrong over a period of time, and then you realize that these are sort of non-performing assets over a period of time, and you need to understand your processes, how you're taking a credit decision, what exactly you're using, are these touch-free processes that we intend to make?

or are these a lot of manual sort of interventions that are there that make this process unreliable for maybe multiple agencies, not only within the bank, but maybe says governmental agencies also. So the governance issues, that's one of the biggest triggers that I've seen that you want to make your processes as touch free as possible, specifically in very, very sort of important sectors like banking and insurance, where the whole system lies sort of economy lies on that.

From consumer perspective, I can say a lot of enterprises struggle with customer experience, especially now when this only channel sort of strategies playing out, you need to be present to your customer at sort of right channels, right time, that you need to deliver. So that's one of the most important triggers that your supply chain inefficiencies sort of inhibit you to deliver well, or create quality issues or create sort of customer complaints, and that's why a lot of executives look for.

BPA technologies or BPM technologies to solve those. So yeah, those are some of the triggers.

Louis-Victor Jadavji (15:48.529)
And so the main sectors you kind of covered where it seems BPM is top of mind is so you got financial services, aka banking, insurance, and so on, you know, the government or public sector where of course, accountability and governance is key, otherwise stuff doesn't work. And then like you mentioned, like the omni channel, consumer oriented CPG like firms. So those would be like the sectors that you tend to see a lot requiring, you know, okay, I see.

Tushar Srivastava (15:56.107)
and

Tushar Srivastava (16:02.591)
Yeah.

Tushar Srivastava (16:13.47)
lot. Yeah. And sometimes the triggers are also internal. So for an example, if you note some of the companies actually when they do internal budgeting, realize that if you're they're putting a lot of and suppose these companies are publicly listed, you get to know that your competitor is spending say 5% of the cost on internal sort of efficiencies that they're sort of able to produce and you're not able to do that. That's a very high number for you. That's also a very, very sort of

strong trigger for bringing in automation because you tend to know that hey, they're able to generate X amount of dollars with the same cost that you could have also done, but yeah, your profitability is taking a hit. So these are also some factors that trigger a lot of executives.

Abhishek (17:02.399)
So Tushar, you've kind of talked about the differences between task mining and process mining and there is a big buzz around process mining. So do you feel there is hype around process mining and what does it all mean when it comes to process mining? What's the area going to look like in a couple of years? What's your take on that?

Tushar Srivastava (17:04.502)
Mm-hmm.

Tushar Srivastava (17:10.385)
Yeah.

Tushar Srivastava (17:23.146)
Yeah, you're correct in the sense that there is some hype around process mining, but in the same or I would say the other side of the coin is it is delivering. So one of the most successful case studies and that's published is from Germany Siemens. And it's a published case study that they've presented on the process mining forum also as to how they started way back in 2015 or 16 with process mining. And now they've saved more than.

100 million euros or something in the capital expenditure. So that's over a period of time that they've done. So yes, there's a hype. Everyone is listening to terms and specifically because of certain vendors doing the events, marketing and so on and so forth. But yes, once you get to understand the benefit over a period of time, that this process has to be understood in a very factual manner, uninhibited by people giving their opinions.

then you realize the potential of process mining. Because for an example, if I ask you how your day looks like for a process, if you work on a process daily, you might give a very different definition as to your colleague or your coworker. And what process mining does is, it brings everyone on the same page. So now you have factual information backed by data to tell you that this is what is going around objectively within your organization and this is what is wrong.

Abhishek (18:21.878)
Okay. So, we'll see you guys in a little bit. Okay. So, we'll see you guys in a little bit. Okay. So, we'll see you guys in a little bit. Okay. So, we'll see you guys in a little bit. Okay. So, we'll see you guys in a little bit. Okay. So, we'll see you guys in a little bit. Okay. So, we'll see you guys in a little bit. Okay. So, we'll see you guys in a little bit. Okay. So, we'll see you guys in a little bit. Okay. So, we'll see you guys in a little bit. Okay. So, we'll see you guys in a little bit. Okay. So, we'll see you guys in a little bit. Okay. So, we

Tushar Srivastava (18:47.346)
you need to focus on. So nobody, no politics can come into play. So process mining actually takes out a lot of human factors also, within improvement. And I've seen a lot of BPA or RPA projects going wrong because there is internal human conflicts within the organization, which sometimes does not get captured within technologies blocking these projects. So process mining becomes a catalyst and an enabler in these sort of situations where you have transparently what's going around.

And what I see in next two to three years is that it will become much more prevalent in enterprises who rely a lot on multiple data sources, who are willing to open their data sources to process mining. And also there's this growing trend of AI. So now with process mining, once you have a lot of process models and data, which is within your enterprise, not a public LLM, but a private sort of a large language model that you can create. So

process mining will be one of the biggest input for that. So if you want to understand how your enterprise might look like in a, say, two years, three years down the line or how you can scale up over a period of time, process mining will play a big role in that because that captures a lot of data logs for you, a lot of processes for you, and you can feed that into your private large LLMs and train it to see what it will look like. And this is also called, so there's an industry term for that, which is called DTO.

or digital twin of the organization. And process mining plays a very crucial role as an input for that also. So once you have that sort of information, you can plan for the future as this is how it will look like over a period of time. And you can plan for multiple even black swan events also like COVID or other sort of things that might hit you in the future. So that's why I feel process mining has a lot of role to play within enterprises from multiple different angles over a period of time. Yeah.

Louis-Victor Jadavji (20:27.781)
Hmm.

Louis-Victor Jadavji (20:37.817)
That's fascinating given what's going on. Do you have any use cases you've seen of process mining leading to working with LLMs in this new AI world, or anything you've seen describing in real terms what you think the major trend is?

Tushar Srivastava (20:42.157)
I know.

Tushar Srivastava (20:55.826)
Yeah, so the most common use cases that you'll see in the process mining world is related to the SAP or Oracle processes like say, procure to pay or order to cash. And these are the ones that are most widely used. So these are the most common use cases. And the reason is simple because you get a lot of data loss for that because these are the one of the first processes I would say that a lot of organizations have automated using ERPs available out of the shelf in the market.

And with regards to AI, it's a work in progress. I've seen some case studies, some public case studies that are there available in the market. People are, executives are trying to actually combine both of these technologies. So they're building their own LLMs within the organization or feeding the data from process mining. But the challenge here is data quality that we see a lot because A, if the data is unreliable and if you spend a lot...

in terms of time and money in training the LLM on basing on that data, then you're going to sort of screw up whole DTO or digital twin that you're going to create over a period of time. So that's the challenge I'm seeing a lot in the initial phases, but yeah, that can be solved over a period of time. For that process, mining also has to get stabilized within the organization. So that's one. The other thing regards to AI is around scalability. Right now,

If you look at one or two processes, yes, that's fine. If you start with say, procured to pay or order to cash, but to get the viability to invest in LLM and those sort of capabilities of machine learning within the organization, you need to have much more sort of involvement of processes, not just one or two of the processes. You need scalability of process mining within the organization first and then use it into LLM to have real benefit for the organization.

So yeah, that's how it looks like. It's a bit complex right now because it's foggy. You cannot see a lot of things right now under hood. But over a period of time, it becomes clear.

Louis-Victor Jadavji (22:59.973)
That's fascinating that you're seeing that trend. When you think about BPM and process mining and LLMs together, it seems there's a huge data management component to it to ensure data quality. Imagine that's another parallel tools that the organization has to use and enforce in order to make this even practical. I see how BPM and this is now

A very wide umbrella for so many different technologies having to work and couple together to make anything useful. Okay, I get it. So just to kind of wrap this up, you are both an expert in BPM and process mining. And if you could just summarize in very specific terms once more for us, the difference between BPM and process mining, where in...

Tushar Srivastava (23:31.636)
Exactly.

Louis-Victor Jadavji (23:58.113)
Where could process mining be used independently of BPM? That would be especially useful because there is a distinct category of process mining tools out there, it sounds. And it does sound like it can be standalone technology for many enterprises looking at a specific use case.

Tushar Srivastava (24:06.78)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So BPM, like I said, is sort of a practice.

And it encompasses multiple technologies. It consists of multiple technologies. And process mining is a stepping stone to BPM, I would say, if you would put it like that. So process mining gives you sort of a transparent view of your processes and how your organization works. And then you use BPM practices or sort of methodologies to improve the process. So that's the distinction. So process mining is just the first step to achieve excellence via BPM.

then you might need maybe task automation or you need orchestration. And then you achieve sort of goals what you started with BPM exercise. But BPM should be looked at from a very broad perspective as a practice, not a technology. So that's the difference.

Louis-Victor Jadavji (25:04.621)
Understood. So go ahead. Yeah.

Abhishek (25:05.164)
So I would like to expand on that question. So you mentioned about process mining. So let's say if I'm an IT director of a company and I'm looking at investing in automation initiative. So what should be my selection criteria for all of these?

Tushar Srivastava (25:07.371)
Mm-hmm.

Tushar Srivastava (25:14.646)
Mm-hmm.

Tushar Srivastava (25:21.291)
Hmm.

Abhishek (25:22.914)
for lack of a better word, bubbles that are created out of the BPM technology area. So what should be my selection criteria if I'm going ahead and looking at some of these technologies in the BPM world, RPA, BPA, task mining, process mining and other tools. So do we have any decision criteria that's already there in the market?

Tushar Srivastava (25:25.324)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Tushar Srivastava (25:38.166)
That's... yeah, yeah.

Tushar Srivastava (25:42.662)
That's a great question, Abhishek. It's becoming complex in the market also right now, to be honest. If you look at some of the mega vendors in this market, maybe I can call upon one or two, say, Pega, Systems, or APN. And even if you look at some of our competitors from a Flowable perspective, they're starting to build capabilities across the ecosystem. So if you're looking at some of the vendors like APN or Pega,

they actually play in each of the markets. So they have acquired process mining capabilities by acquiring certain companies. They have task mining capabilities by acquiring certain companies. Then they have their own sort of BPA capabilities that they were originally known for. They've also acquired RPA. So there are certain vendors in the market and in the similar way you can call out SAP, they acquired Signavio and they have sort of whole sort of suite of capabilities. Similar you have IBM. So there are vendors in the market that have...

all the capabilities across the range. So when you're looking at as an executive, you have a choice to make whether you want one suite, where you go ahead and have all the technologies in place and you start with process mining because you want to understand the processes first or map your processes first, and then look at your task or look at your processes, code your graph, them automate them, and then repeat the cycle to understand whether it's performing well or not. On the other hand, there are vendors like Flowable in the market, which are sort of the best of the breed solution there.

we can integrate, Flowable can integrate, say with a process mining software, with an RPA software, with a Salesforce and then you sort of take a decision whether you want to go to next step or not, whether you want to use X things or not. So that's the decision criteria right now. It actually is a bit more complex in a sense when you look at the overlaps these technologies might have, but once you understand the end goal, that what we want to achieve with your process,

And that's what actually BPM is all about. Once you understand that, hey, these are five things that we need to tackle in next two or three years, then you quite frankly understand, hey, we need task automation workforce, then we need choreography, then we need analytics maybe, and then maybe what God knows what comes next, maybe AI or something. But yeah, the starting point is always understanding the process, understanding the root cause of the problem without throwing technology or without throwing fancy terms on top of it. So that...

Tushar Srivastava (28:04.298)
That's the simple criteria, which is the basic criteria, that you understand the process, then you sort of break it down into next two or three years, how it should look like, and then you sort of do a reverse calculation to understand that we need task automation for what we need to do. Yeah.

Louis-Victor Jadavji (28:21.253)
So there are BPM platform vendors or who provide the entire, I guess, quote unquote life cycle or perspective on BPM. And then a bunch of tools that are point solutions that are best of breed solutions for kind of individual parts. And you mentioned some of the more incumbent or legacy providers out there that cover the BPM space and how it could be appealing to use the entire platform.

But yes, I think we understand now there's no such thing as a BPM technology, but there may be BPM platforms that encompass many of the underlying technologies. And when it comes to, let's say, the individual parts of BPM, so I should be good to like, so let's kind of get some names out there. So when it comes to overall BPM platforms, who are the two to three main players? And when it comes to the,

Tushar Srivastava (29:02.326)
Absolutely.

Tushar Srivastava (29:08.961)
Mm-hmm.

Louis-Victor Jadavji (29:20.037)
the individual parts of the BPM process, are there one or two players that are worth mentioning there as challengers or upstarts or significant players? It would be good to understand the vendor landscape or solution landscape, if you will.

Tushar Srivastava (29:35.31)
Absolutely. So I can give you a broad overview of what vendors are actually present in those markets. Maybe it's not appropriate to call them leaders maybe, but yeah, those are one of the biggest vendors in those markets. So if I maybe start with process mining, you'll see Solonis as one of the top most sort of...

vendor out there, then Signavio you have, and there are many. This is a crowded market with more than 20 vendors in the recent Gartner Magic Quadrant for process mining. But if I have to sort of take out a couple of vendors, then yeah, you have Celonis, then you have Signavio as one of the top two vendors in the market across multiple analyst firms from Forrester or Gartner. These are the top two or three firms that we come out. Then if you look at, say for an example, RPA,

top two or three terms firms that come out are, one is UI part, the second is you have a look at say, BluePrisp that say, gives you sort of a huge chunk of market that both of those cover. And when you look at BPA specifically from process automation, now if I may call, so if we recall that there are two sort of types of vendors here. So if you look at Pega, APM, those are more of a sort of every.

sort of covering encompassing all the technology. So they're presenting all the markets. But apart from that, you have players like Flowable Kamunda, then you have other players in the market that cover a chunk of this market. And basically those are more of a process automation and orchestration vendors. So these are, I would say, some of the top vendors in these markets that cover this whole landscape. Then there are some adjusting markets like task mining or analytics, where you have a lot of vendors.

which might be covered in some of these vendors, but there are some small startups that are also playing in these areas. They're trying to innovate. They're trying to partner with bigger organizations. So yeah, this is a crowded sort of a market with a lot of enterprises here vying for the space.

Louis-Victor Jadavji (31:36.805)
I can totally see that. Yes, this is very insightful. So if there were, let's say, three or four takeaways today from our conversation, I think it'd be good for the audience to have something to walk away with. I love, number one, the distinction between BPM

as not really a one-stop technology. It's a complex suite of tools that may be present in some overall platforms, but oftentimes you combine point solutions and create a cohesive strategy. Second is that this is a space that has been around for a long time and has evolved in many ways. And the needs for BPM tend to emerge a lot around

uh, you know, the, the financial services sector, the, uh, the public sector, uh, complex omni-channel plays. So there's, and the triggers, um, tend to arise, like you said, out of, um, people issues, if you will, right. Um, yeah. And, and, uh, and what would be like in the same other one or two takeaways you think we should add to that list?

Tushar Srivastava (32:46.602)
Yeah.

Tushar Srivastava (32:54.414)
I would say one of the biggest takeaways from my perspective is that these technologies have very different use cases. So it's important that executives and enterprise understand that there are separate use cases and separate sort of boxing of these technologies, if I may call it, and do not confuse between them. So that's one of my biggest opinion also. I've been articulating this from a long point in time, but yeah, that's...

I would say bottom stout, yeah.

Louis-Victor Jadavji (33:27.131)
Gotcha.

Abhishek (33:27.626)
That was one of the key takeaways for me as well. There are these different technologies that might have common use cases they cater to. So an organization should not go and

ahead and invest in multiple technologies coming in from the BPM umbrella without finding a proper use case for it. So because they might go ahead and use overlapping technology for a common use case that might increase their IT budgets. So I think they can also lean back to Taylor flow in helping them kind of go ahead and evaluate some of these areas too.

Louis-Victor Jadavji (34:03.969)
Exactly, yeah, we should get something up for a BPM soon. So folks, this has been great, very insightful. I'd like to thank my amazing co-host Abhishek and of course our guest Tushar for all the insights and depth of this conversation. We hope to have you again in the future. And yeah, if you want any help making technology decisions, I highly recommend you take a look at TeloFlow.

That's taloflow.ai to advance your vendor research much faster in BPM and other spaces, adjacent spaces. And yeah, this is the inaugural podcast. So thank you, Tushar, for the honor of being our inaugural guest. And we're excited to share this podcast with the world. And looking forward to the questions for a potential future pod diving further into process mining and BPM.

and BPM related technologies. All right, thank you. That's all.

Abhishek (35:10.593)
Thank you.

Tushar Srivastava (35:11.688)
Thank you.

Louis-Victor Jadavji (35:12.165)
Bye guys.